Ep. 26 - Lilith

[Gina 00:11] Welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. I'm Gina.

[Kathryn 00:21] I'm Kathryn.

[Gina 00:22] And every month we choose a new topic and a new ice cream flavor to go along with it. This month we're talking about demons while we munch on some apple cinnamon ice cream. So grab a spoon and let's dig in.

[Kathryn 00:36] Okay.

[Gina 00:37] All right, I'm gonna have a bite before I get into what I need to say.

[Kathryn 00:38] Hooray.

[Gina 00:45] So I feel the need to address a comment that we received.

[Kathryn 00:46] He. Not gonna be I can't do it it's so funny I'm already like I can't laugh because I'll cough and this was the funniest thing that ever happened to us please continue I'm sorry I can't get over this.

[Gina 01:01] A couple of episodes ago, we talked about the werewolf trials. In one of the stories that we told in there, was something about somebody had to be beheaded such that a cartwheel could be rolled in between the head and the body. Like the head had to be far enough away from the body that a cartwheel can go between it. Kathryn and I thought that it meant like a physical, like a gymnastics cartwheel. And so we talked about that.

[Kathryn 01:28] My God.

[Gina 01:30] On the podcast, but at length.

[Kathryn 01:32] Length several for a long time we were like theorizing about what they could have meant.

[Gina 01:39] Yeah, and like talking about how stressful it would be for the executioner to have to do a cartwheel.

[Kathryn 01:44] My God.

[Gina 01:45] And then somewhat some lovely person on our YouTube channel put a comment on that video and it was, I don't have it in front of me, but it was worded so kindly and nicely and just very gently telling us that it probably meant like the wheel on a cart, like a horse in cart.

[Kathryn 01:49] Yes.

[Gina 02:10] And Kathryn texted me about it because I didn't see it. I think Kathryn sent me a screenshot of it or something. And we both proceeded to lose our collective fucking mind.

[Kathryn 02:20] I've never laughed so hard at a comment ever because it was immediately, you know that moment where you immediately know, wow, my brain truly just was not, it did not, the on switch was off in that moment. I didn't even get to the part where they said wheel of a cart, like the moment.

[Gina 02:28] Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 02:43] I saw the word cartwheel, like they said something like, surely they don't mean a cartwheel parentheses like we and a cartwheel emoji. The moment I saw that I was like, I knew exactly what it was supposed to be. Like seeing it written out, I was like, this is ridiculous. That is absolutely not what they meant. Immediately I could not stop laughing. I was laughing.

[Gina 02:51] You.

[Kathryn 03:05] It took I had to wait like a day to respond to this comment because I was laughing so hard. I was afraid I wasn't going to like be able to use my keyboard. My God. That was the funniest thing I've ever experienced. So anyway, yeah, we definitely were confused. I thank you so much to the person who left us that comment. We very much appreciate it. We can well, we can share the comments in the video if we want to. But it was just so funny. Like it was like the most.

[Gina 03:31] It was so funny.

[Kathryn 03:33] I felt like truly like, wow, I can't believe, I just can't believe how much time we spent on it for it to be so obvious.

[Gina 03:39] Like really digging into it hard.

[Kathryn 03:44] And it was like the way they phrased it like, surely they don't mean this, but the wheel of a cart. I'm like, surely that's true. Like, of course that's true. Why the fuck would that not be true? Like, my God, that was the funniest thing ever. Thank you so much. We both have master's degrees.

[Gina 03:47] Surely they don't mean... I could be a little bit of a dumb bitch sometimes, but... Do you think we should give them back?

[Kathryn 04:10] Oh my God. If I can find mine, I don't know. Oh my God. Are we supposed to keep those? It's, you know what, it's somewhere. I have it framed in a frame that it doesn't actually fit in, so I put a little piece of like cardboard, or not cardboard, construction paper behind it, because I was like, oh, I'm gonna make it look like it's like got a mat behind it. It doesn't. It looks like some preschooler like slapped a piece, like, oh my God. Anyway.

[Gina 04:13] I don't know where mine is either. Mine's still in the envelope that it came somewhere.

[Kathryn 04:39] Truly. So yeah, shout out for that listener. You're a real one. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in and we hope you come back. It gets, well, maybe it'll get smarter. I don't know. That remains to be seen. Well, maybe it will be intelligent moving forward. Oh my God, that was so funny.

[Gina 04:43] Mm-hmm. Speak for yourself.

[Kathryn 04:58] Anyway, speaking of being unintelligent, I had a whole thing I wanted to talk about in our last episode and I completely forgot. I started talking about something else entirely. I had a fun fact about the Amityville movie that I completely forgot to share. It's really anticlimactic. It's not going to mean anything to anyone, but I wanted you to know. So the remake, the one with Ryan Reynolds, not Ryan Gosling.

[Gina 05:25] Hehehehehe

[Kathryn 05:26] Another mistake that we've made. The part of that movie, like the house and the set and the small town and everything was filmed in Salem, Wisconsin. Which is not far from me at all. Yeah, it's only like, I actually have no idea how far it is, maybe like an hour. Yeah, yeah, a big part of it, was like shot in like, it's like southern Wisconsin and then northern Illinois. There's locations on both sides of the border that it was shot in. That's it, that's a fun fact.

[Gina 05:37] Really? Wow. Well. I've always thought if Long Island had a twin, it would be Wisconsin. Salem,

[Kathryn 06:00] It would be southern Wisconsin. I say that all the time. What's the difference between Wisconsin and New York, really?

[Gina 06:11] Anywho.

[Kathryn 06:09] So anyway, We could also talk about how the mistake I made of creating my own ice cream recipe. And so when I opened the refrigerator, or I'm sorry, freezer, today there was a black of ice in place of my ice cream. So I had to throw it in the microwave on auto defrost.

[Gina 06:19] Thank. She sent me a video of her trying to scoop it and it was doing the thing where your spoon like clinks against frozen liquid. That's really funny.

[Kathryn 06:38] I literally had to chisel my way into this ice cream. Anyway.

[Gina 06:42] I don't really have much else.

[Kathryn 06:43] Alright. That's alright, I already drank the last of my ice cream. So, I'm ready.

[Gina 06:47] Okay, I'm full of curiosity about what you're about to tell me.

[Kathryn 06:50] Well buckle up baby, because I'm about to tell you all about Lilith. I'm so excited, I'm very excited for this episode. All right. So, most of us know her as Adam's first wife, the infamous Adam, first guy on earth.

[Kathryn 07:10] Version of Lilith can be attributed to a Jewish text that was written in the Middle Ages called the Alphabet of Ben Sarah. And I am going to apologize for pronunciations right at the top here because I wrote everything out phonetically instead of trying to fuck around with remembering it and I'm going to have to just still do my best anyway. So, Cranium Salt with all of these names for every episode for the rest of my life.

[Kathryn 07:32] Alphabet of Ben-Sara is an anonymous text that was written sometime around the year 1000 AD. It's a volume of 22 stories that represent each of the 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet. I think it was the fifth story in this collection is a story within a story. And that's where we meet Lilith.

[Kathryn 07:50] The premise of the story goes as such. King Nebuchadnezzar, probably, of Babylon has a young son who has fallen ill. So a courtier named Ben-Sirah is summoned to come and try to cure the son of his illness. So he comes in and...

[Gina 08:06] Nailed it.

[Kathryn 08:22] He invokes the name of God by inscribing an amulet with the names of three angels named Sanoy, Sansanoy, and Samangalof, probably. Thank you so much, I'm so scared. Okay, so to give context about who these angels are and what they do, that is where we get the story of Adam and Lilith. This is where we kind of go into the story within the story.

[Gina 08:34] You're doing great.

[Kathryn 08:48] That is within these tablets. So in the story, God creates Adam from the dirt. And once he does this, God's like, it's not good for a man to be alone. So he decides to make a woman also of the dirt. First ever woman and her name was Lilith. Immediately, Adam and Lilith begin fighting. Lilith has declared that she refuses to lie underneath Adam during sex.

[Kathryn 09:16] Which I'm like, why are we telling this story to a child who's sick, first and foremost? I mean, to each their own, I think that's a little weird. But they're arguing over this and Adam insists that she belongs below him because she's his wife. She's like, fuck this, no one rules over me. God created both of us from dirt, so we're equal. We are of the same substance.

[Gina 09:16] That was a weird.

[Kathryn 09:38] Adam was like, no way, big strong guy, big strong ego, you need to answer to me. I'm paraphrasing, by the way, just so everyone knows, this is not a direct quote. I assume that was obvious, but I don't want anyone to come for me. This is just a summary of what happened. Might be a little interpretation on my part, give or take. So anyway, this infuriated Lilith, and she grew so frustrated that she

[Gina 09:53] Hehehehehe

[Kathryn 10:05] Took the Lord's name in vain. Big no-no. So she's pissed. She's clearly mad. Adam's mad at her for being disrespectful and just wanting to have pleasurable sex. And so the fighting just escalates and escalates and escalates until eventually Lilith sprouts these huge bat-like wings and fucks off to the Red Sea. That's where Moses hung out.

[Gina 11:09] Woof.

[Kathryn 11:16] Find her and tell her this deal that they are like trying to make with her basically come back and answer to Adam and just do what you gotta do to like create the earth or whatever or we'll curse you to be this like violent murderous thing.

[Gina 11:33] Just let her be on top, dude.

[Kathryn 11:35] Right? There's a very simple solution here. So the angels don't want to have to curse her, apparently. So their other solution was, can also drown you in the Red Sea if you don't want to be cursed. Yeah, so yeah. Refuses. She's like, that's not the life for me. I don't like that guy. I don't want to go back.

[Gina 11:37] You're getting... fucking getting the Lord to smite people. Just fucking take a load off. Okay, yeah, that's better.

[Kathryn 12:02] Like fucking curse me, I don't give a shit. The angels are begging her to come back because they don't wanna have to do this. They don't wanna have to like, they're like put in between a rock and a hard place, you know, it's kind of like a don't shoot the messenger. They don't wanna have to like make this decision. But they don't really, they don't have a choice, cause that's God's will. So end up cursing her. She was like, you know what, like,

[Gina 12:38] You

[Kathryn 12:39] They end up making deal upon cursing her that... basically children are not safe from Lilith, but if you inscribe these angels names on an amulet, she will know to stay away from that child. Like that can be like their kind of middle ground of like, she's now cursed to kill her children 100 per day forever in eternity. Yes, she is cursed to kill children. Yes, yes.

[Gina 13:05] She has to kill them? Okay, okay, cool. Well, not cool, but I understand now, yeah.

[Kathryn 13:12] Not cool, but yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Because these angels were so torn up about it, she was like, all right, let's make a deal. Like there can be some form of protection. And that is where the legend of inscribing their names on an amulet came in. Like the deal is if you inscribe these three angels names on an amulet, they will be there to like protect the child. So that's like kind of, it's not really middle ground. It still sucks for everyone involved, but yeah.

[Gina 13:42] That's a big loophole though.

[Kathryn 13:45] That's the deal they came to and so that, you know, when you come out the upper level of this story, that's why Ben Saral was explaining that inscribing these angel names on this amulet would help this child. It would help protect him from Lilith. So they curse her. She's doomed to kill kids for the rest of eternity.

[Gina 14:01] Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 14:10] Because Adam sucks. So very dramatic. Yeah, very dramatic. So this is Lilith. This is the story of Lilith, or at least the story of Lilith that people want us to know. She's often referred to as a succubus who hates children and just leaves chaos and heartbreak.

[Gina 14:14] Yeah, that's a lot of fucking, I know. Yeah, I have some thoughts.

[Kathryn 14:35] In her wake because like this whole story starts with like she leaves Adam alone and desolate and brokenhearted and then this chaos ensues. That's the story that is told.

[Gina 14:50] In toxic exes am I right?

[Kathryn 14:54] Right, exactly.

[Kathryn 14:54] So the second time God tried his hand at creating a woman, they decided to her from Adam's rib instead. So she would be forced to be submissive because they were no longer of the same substance. She is now of Adam. So that's how we get Eve. Story's not about Eve, but like real quick, I do have to say justice for Eve because I've been seeing a lot of like discourse.

[Gina 15:38] Yeah, I think it's more like don't be an

[Kathryn 15:44] That's all right. Exactly. So women, women supporting women. Yeah, we're not we're not anti Eve on this podcast. Okay, anyway. Like I said, this is the story of Lilith that many of us know. But that doesn't mean that that's where her story starts. Lilith's origins are ancient. People talk about quote, the old gods,

[Gina 15:52] Yeah.

[Kathryn 16:08] That's the era we're talking about. Those are the gods that Lilith hung around with. Taking it all the way back to the beginning of recorded history. My newest obsession since we started this podcast, early Mesopotamia. A lot of fun shit going on back then.

[Gina 16:22] Nice.

[Kathryn 16:26] The first time Lilith ever appears in any recorded text was in The Legend of was written in 2000 BC, so that's 3000 years before she shows up in the story we just heard. It's quite a long time. The Legend of Gilgamesh was a Sumerian epic poem, and it was written on clay tablets and chronicles the journey of this guy Gilgamesh who's considered the first ever literary hero. He goes on this giant quest to find the meaning of life. Adventure ensues. It's like one of those. Tale as old as time, literally, this was like the first recorded one.

[Kathryn 17:12] So on tablet 12, there's a story called Gilgamesh and the Hulupu tree. In this story, Gilgamesh comes upon the garden of Inanna, who is the goddess of erotic love, which like, again, tell me a man wrote this without telling me the man wrote this. So she's upset because her garden is being destroyed by all these demons and monsters.

[Gina 17:28] Nice.

[Kathryn 17:40] And she's particularly nervous about this Hulupu tree in her garden because it's this sacred tree that was intentionally planted I always, I don't know how to pronounce this. Is it the Euphrates River? Euphrates, okay.

[Gina 17:54] Euphrates, yeah.

[Kathryn 17:57] So they're on this river, and she's nervous about this tree. There's this serpent like dragon flapping around and an anzu, which is one of those lion headed birds. They're often depicted in Mesopotamian stories. And it built its nest in the tree. So like all these creatures are like starting to get a little too close to this tree for Inanna's comfort. And in addition to those monsters, there's also what was referred to as a Lilitu. And that is a female version of a Lilu, which is a type of demon.

[Kathryn 18:35] So Lilitu are quote, shrieking, vampiric, demoness. That ancient Mesopotamians believed were created from the spirits of adolescents who died before they could get married and have kids. So it was like, yeah, isn't that so sad? Yep. It was like, you were young, if you died young, basically, before you were able to quote unquote start a family, you...

[Gina 18:51] Wow! Adolescents who died before they got married and had kids.

[Kathryn 19:08] As Legend 1 would become a Lilu or a Lilitu.

[Gina 19:12] Wow, okay, interesting.

[Kathryn 19:14] Yeah, yeah, kind of. I don't personally believe this, obviously, but they're kind of thought of as like unfulfilled souls. Like the greatest accomplishment you could get would be to get married and have kids. And if you were unable to do that, you were doomed to become a demon because your soul was not fulfilled, basically.

[Gina 19:22] Mm. Naturally, yes. That is a... That's interesting. Cool. Alright. Yeah.

[Kathryn 19:38] Yeah, yeah, it goes deep. Like, why do we have to be so deep with that? So this Lilitu in the Gilgamesh story is building her home in the base of the tree, hollow tree type. And everything's just getting ruined. Like this garden is just being overrun with these demons. And so Gilgamesh comes in and starts saving the day, essentially. He slays the dragon, the bird flies away somewhere, and

[Kathryn 19:58] The Lilitu panics because when he slayed the dragon, she like freaked out because I don't know, they were like besties or something like that. There's something with the Lilitu and serpents that is very, like a serpent is often used to represent Lilith or the Lilitu. So there was something, they had a connection in some way. So she freaks out that Gilgamesh killed this dragon thing. She sprouts wings and lets out a blood-curdling screech and flies off into the desert.

[Gina 20:41] Love that as an expression of rage.

[Kathryn 21:02] So this is where that comes from. The desert is part of the Gilgamesh story. The Red Sea is part of the Lilith story. But sometimes they get overlapped and there's, you know, that's part of her legend that she was like doomed to wander the desert. Anyway.

[Gina 21:22] Is the Red Sea the one with the really high salt content or is that the... Black nevermind.

[Kathryn 21:27] That's the Dead Sea. Red Sea is the one that Moses parted. Yeah, so the, yeah.

[Gina 21:32] Yeah, for sure would rather go to the Red Sea than the desert. If you got to pick,

[Kathryn 21:38] I don't know which one I'd want. Depends which desert, maybe.

[Gina 21:42] I guess also if you're like a god that doesn't need, or not god, entity that might not need things like water and shelter.

[Kathryn 21:49] Oh yeah, good point. I don't know. I don't know if she would. Because, like, would it matter if she was near the Red Sea? Because if it's a sea, it's salt water, so she wouldn't be able to drink it anyway, right?

[Gina 21:59] I was just thinking like recreationally there's more to do at the sea, like at the beach. Yeah.

[Kathryn 22:02] You're thinking of like the vacation aspect. Also there would be, yeah, I mean. It rains more so she could get fresh water.

[Gina 22:13] Mm-hmm, make sand castles.

[Kathryn 22:15] Yeah.

[Gina 22:18] Sorry, please keep going.

[Kathryn 22:20] No, I'm just trying to decide which one I want to do now. I don't know. I mean, I do love water. I guess Red Sea, yeah. I just don't like the idea of being banished anywhere. I think that's why I'm struggling. Like, don't tell me where to go. You know, like that's like...

[Gina 22:28] Desert would, I just, I don't know. No, no. Let me go, what's the thing that Ryan from The Office said? Like, lead me when I'm in the mood to be led. Yeah, same.

[Kathryn 22:40] I don't. Hahaha! Yeah, I feel that.

[Kathryn 22:42] One thing I found interesting between these two stories is that this original version of Lilith as this demon, Lilitu, there were people that didn't, quote, have the opportunity to have children. And then in Lilith's story, she was blessed to be ultra fertile, but then cursed to basically undo that fertility, you know what I mean? So there's a huge connection to fertility and reproduction and all of that, especially since the whole drama started with her and Adam because of sex. So there's a lot of there's a lot going on with like

[Gina 23:13] Yeah, it's kind of like...

[Kathryn 23:26] Baby-making in her story, which I think we don't often associate her with. That's not usually forethought when it comes to Lilith. But that's such a strong piece of her legend.

[Gina 23:28] Yeah. Yeah, because it's like the opposite when I think of, because when I think of Eve, I think about like fertility and, you know, motherhood and all that stuff.

[Kathryn 23:42] Mm-hmm. Well, and that's by design, we are supposed to think of Eve as the mother and the good one and the one that like they got it right this time when they made her, you know what I mean? And Lilith is very much like the anti-mother, you know, she's what she fucked up. And even the whole Eve being the quintessential mother and bearer of all life. Talk about pressure. That sucks too. So no one can win.

[Gina 24:10] Yeah. And Adam's over here just picking his fucking sex positions, having a great old time.

[Kathryn 24:20] Yeah. And boohooing when things don't go his way.

[Gina 24:23] No, I have too many hot girlfriends and a nice garden.

[Kathryn 24:28] So, yeah, like all of this is to say we can very clearly see the parallels and not just the parallels of these two stories, but the transition of how the story grew over time...

[Kathryn 24:28] So, yeah, like all of this is to say we can very clearly see the parallels and not just the parallels of these two stories, but the transition of how the story grew over time. To this day, there are pieces of Lilith's story in all the Abrahamic traditions, which include Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. She kind of appears in some version in all of these, not necessarily always official religious texts, but sometimes in folklore, just stories or oral traditions passed down. Even though the Hebrew story is probably, I'm gonna say arguably the most popular and most widely known, she also shows up in versions of the Christian Bible. There is one passage, Isaiah 34-14,

[Kathryn 24:59] That describes the dangers and desolation of the desert. It says, quote, wild animals shall meet with hyenas and wild goats shall cry to one another. There are also Lilith shall settle and find a place to rest.

[Kathryn 25:14] That is not what it says in the King James translation. In the King James Bible, it says, wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island and the Seder shall cry to his fellow. The screech owl also shall rest there and find for herself a place to rest. So.

[Kathryn 25:38] Sorry, I just got like dizzy. I'm sorry. I might be talking too much. Truly all that Bible talk. God's mad that I'm talking shit. Okay. So in this version, we're talking about a screech owl, not a female demon named Lilith. I'm also going to bring up what a satyr is because I did not know, but it's the little goat guys that are half

[Gina 25:59] It's all that Bible. Maybe you're a demon. Fizzling you out. Like Mr.

[Kathryn 26:23] Mr. Tumnus. I was gonna say Phil from Hercules because I always think it's funny that guy's name is Phil. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 26:27] Yes, that's a better, yeah, that's a better, yeah. Because I think, I want to say Tumnus is something different, but I can't remember what he is. Is he a Scyther? Okay.

[Kathryn 26:33] No, I think he is that. I forgot about... I think he is a satyr. He's just not... I don't think he's little in that movie. I think that's what's confusing.

[Gina 26:43] I think we should take a lesson from Hercules and have Danny DeVito play every satyr in every movie ever.

[Kathryn 26:50] I know that that was animated, but it also was the best casting decision in cinematic history. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Think of Phil when you read that Bible verse. Okay. So anyway, like I said, this story refers to a screech owl instead of Lilith by name. Why is this?

[Gina 26:58] My god. Yes. Agreed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah

[Kathryn 27:19] This is actually kind of a fun fact that I thought was very strange, but enjoyed it. So, Sumeria, where the Lilith legend started, was in southern Mesopotamia, which is present-day Iraq. When the King James Bible was being translated and they were working on it, it was determined that English-speaking Christians weren't going to be familiar enough with Sumerian history for a mention of Lilith or a Lilitu to resonate with people. So they were like, no one's going to know what that means or why this is dangerous. So they decided to go with more symbolic imagery. And they decided to go with a screech owl because they wanted to, they were trying to paint the picture of like a nocturnal

[Gina 27:50] Wow.

[Kathryn 28:09] Danger situation. So they replaced her with an owl. So technically Lilith doesn't show up anywhere in English-speaking Christian tradition, but instead the owl shows up as like a bad omen type situation, but in place of the Lilitu.

[Gina 28:35] That is such a fun fact.

[Kathryn 28:38] Isn't that wild? Yeah, they basically were like, these people aren't going to know what we're talking about. So let's make it an owl. So now like the owl is often thought of as like, bad luck and, you know, bad things to come and protect your children. But it's because of the Lilitu.

[Gina 28:43] That's fascinating. That's interesting that you say that, I don't think I knew that an owl, is it an owl or a screech owl that's supposed to be bad luck?

[Kathryn 29:00] Screech owl. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 29:01] Okay, okay. I don't think I knew that because when you said when you were talking about that at first I thought it was interesting that like they were they kind of replaced her with an animal that can represent wisdom

[Kathryn 29:12] Yeah, that's what I thought too. And I don't know where that symbolism started either. Like, I don't know how long, I don't know what came first. Yeah. Wait, what'd you say?

[Gina 29:18] Probably those Tootsie Pop commercials. Except probably the Tootsie Pop commercials.

[Kathryn 29:25] Oh, I was going to say Winnie the Pooh. Because of Owl. Yeah. Those are probably the start of many, legends.

[Gina 29:27] Both great. Yeah, both of those. Yeah. No, that's a very good fact though. I like that.

[Kathryn 29:38] So from this translation, is where the association Lilith has with owls comes into place. Two of her more common kind of imagery or symbols are the serpent and the owl or screech owl, whatever. These, this is why these stories are kind of where that started. As far as Islam is concerned, Lilith again doesn't really show up in any official religious doctrine but there are folk stories about basically being careful around night birds for the same reasons mentioned above. Like, can be very bad luck, it can be a bad omen, protect your children, everything I said before. It's thought that Lilith tricks you into thinking she's just some winged night beast or whatever,

[Kathryn 30:14] She can get close enough because she's not her normal demonic form to harm children. Like she can get close enough to kids and pregnant women. Pregnant women are also like advised to be careful. That's essentially why. Like it's thought that if she can trick you into thinking she's a night bird, she can get close enough to cause harm. It's also said in some Islamic folklore that

[Kathryn 30:36] Men are in danger of her stealing their sperm so that they can't procreate because remember part of her story is that she's the succubus. So she'll like trick them into having sex with her so they can't have babies with the real women so they can't like populate the earth.

[Gina 31:12] Funniest superpower ever. The sperm stealer.

[Kathryn 31:14] Truly. Yeah. She, that's the, yeah. So she's thought, like, she's thought to cause impotence, essentially, in men. That's like the story. Yeah. That's like the story that was created to like explain erectile dysfunction. It was the owl.

[Gina 31:25] That is so sick. That's fucking awesome. The junk burglar.

[Kathryn 31:42] Anyway, just one thing I want to point out at this point in the story, it's like my favorite thing ever. In every single version of her story, she is shrieking—love and respect—B, somehow preventing the advancement of the human population, and C, flapping around with like big spooky wings. So that's Lilith. Like, that's it. That's who she is. Those are like, if I can summarize her vibe, that's got to be it. Sorry, I'll go on.

[Gina 32:18] I'm very intrigued. I didn't know any of this. I knew that she was kind of known as Adam's first wife and I knew some of the details of that story. All of the rest of this completely new information and I am enchanted by it.

[Kathryn 32:31] Yeah, I love it. So. Everything that we just talked about, like there has been an evolution as far as like who she is what she does, how she came to be. But like I said previously, it's all very similar and she still maintains the same themes. Her evolution has happened very slowly. She went from lost soul that turned into a demon, you know, back in

[Kathryn 32:55] like her Sumerian story to basically this like sex-crazed man-hating woman. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but that's the vibe. It is worth noting that some religious scholars do believe it's possible that the Alphabet of Ben Sira was a satire on religion. I don't know how popular that theory is. It was something that was mentioned a few times. But there's not enough evidence to confirm whether or not that is actually true, especially since remember that text was anonymous. So they don't know like the official beliefs of the person who wrote it.

[Kathryn 33:31] But I think it's worth bringing up because throughout history, it hasn't ever been treated as satire. So whether it was or wasn't

[Gina 33:31] Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 33:44] I don't want to say it doesn't matter because it does matter, I think, but it doesn't really change things. It doesn't change her story. It's kind of one of those hindsight is 20/20, but also not really because we still don't know. If it was satire, it kind of changes the way you think of that story because it is so ridiculous and we were laughing our way through it that it's like,

[Gina 34:15] Mmm. I like that one. I like that.

[Kathryn 34:33] There's almost a conspiracy theory in here. Like, could that have been meant as like a cautionary tale for men and not women? Me too. And again, this is a hypothesis. Like, they question whether or not, and I don't know, I should say I didn't have a ton of time to dive deep into this theory. So I don't know what makes them think it could have been satire. I don't know if it was like,

[Kathryn 34:50] Things that were mentioned in some of the other stories or the way it was written or if they suspect they know who wrote it, like I don't know. So if you do know, if you know more about this than I do, please hit the link in the show notes or send us an email because I would be interested to learn why they think this. But again, that really doesn't change her story. Like socially, she has been thought to be this like...

[Kathryn 35:11] Horrible female beast that cannot be trusted, but it's like, could it have been meant to have the opposite effect? We don't know. But I do like the idea that it was meant to, because that would be preferred. Regardless that

[Gina 35:11] I like that. I like the layers to that very much.

[Kathryn 35:17] Is not how it was received and that's not how her story went. So eventually, not even eventually, like from the onset, her story has been viewed as kind of a cautionary tale. They were told as a way basically to make women afraid of like stepping out of line, to make children help keep their mothers in line, for lack of a better phrase, like you don't want to be like caught up with this Lilith situation, like children need to be protected.

[Kathryn 35:39] Women need to be the ones to protect them. That was basically the message that was being given. So Lilith is an archetype, basically. She is the antithesis of what people would consider like the ideal wife, mother, woman. She's meant to, well, I don't even want to say meant to. I will say like over time, she kind of grew to

[Kathryn 35:59] Represent sort of the most like primal form of female energy and power.

[Kathryn 36:12] Over the years, over the millennia, people started acknowledging that, you know, well, yes, she was turned into this beast, this demon. She did so because she had a choice. She chose that over something that she thought was far worse, which was spend her life with Adam. So people started kind of spinning it and like, okay, yes, she was a victim. She was 100% a victim of God and Adam, et cetera, et cetera. But she also used whatever power she could to have the life she wanted. She's sensual, she's witty, she's bitchy, she's all of the things that women are not supposed to be. And most importantly to our podcast, she's also heavily misunderstood. That's the eternal theme.

[Kathryn 36:55] So again, even though she's historically been thought of as a representation of kind of the bad girl, she's like this naughty, bad bitch. You can also look at it the other way. Like, that isn’t necessarily the case. She’s never—arguably, I’m gonna say arguably—she’s never done anything bad that wasn’t forced upon her or due to a lack of choice. So there’s kind of two sides of this coin.

[Kathryn 37:19] Again, especially in recent years, a lot more people are kind of acknowledging her as a good guy versus like the bad guy. Because like all the choices she was given still were never good. Either stay in a toxic relationship or be cursed forever. Either be homeless in the desert or we'll kill you like we killed your dragon friend.

[Kathryn 37:40] Like she did what she could with what she had and her story just kind of grew from there. She never made any indication that she wanted to hurt anyone or do anything bad to anyone. All of those things were always forced upon her because really all she ever wanted to do was just live her own life and like flap around and do her own thing. That was really just kind of what it came down to for her.

[Gina 38:16] I think it's so interesting that like even though in a lot of traditions she's supposed to be kind of like the like you were saying like the antithesis of the human nature to like reproduce and populate the earth like she's the blocker.

[Kathryn 38:17] You.

[Gina 38:32] Even though she's cast as the bad guy in that scenario, that's still so much more power than I'm used to women having this far back in history. And even like, I mean, in modern times too, which I think is fascinating.

[Kathryn 38:39] Yeah. Well, and I think that that kind of opens up another discussion of, the concept of power is so subjective if you really think about it, like...

[Kathryn 38:52] I don't know, like there's so much power in having children or like choosing not to. It's kind of like wherever you want to put your energy, you have the power to do those things. And like when something is like forced upon you, like things were forced upon her, even when she didn't really have a choice, she still found a way to force her way into having a choice, you know? And that is so true for so many women throughout all of history, you know? I think we look at, you know, queens and like all of these things that's like, historically they didn't have a lot of power, but if you look closely at the decisions they did make and the things they were doing, they like...

[Gina 39:24] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[Kathryn 39:45] Most stories, you will be able to find some version of that, like they did what they could, you know? You know what I'm thinking of? I'm thinking of that. What's that movie? My Big Fat Greek Wedding? That one iconic line when she says the man is the head of the house, but the woman is the neck. That's the vibe that I'm like, kind of ascribing to this story. Like, you might be in charge, quote unquote, but like,

[Gina 39:49] Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 40:00] Hahaha! Hmm.

[Kathryn 40:09] There's someone that can very much influence what direction you go in, you know?

[Gina 40:13] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love the feminine tradition of being fluent in operating between the lines.

[Kathryn 40:20] Yeah. I love a loophole. That's like, one of those memes, like the feminine urge to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or whatever. There's one thing I can trust all my gal pals to do, it's like, we'll find it. We'll find the loophole and we'll live our best lives. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 40:23] Me too, same. Just give us time. Give us time in an Instagram handle and we'll find it.

[Kathryn 40:41] Hashtag girlhood.

[Kathryn 40:43] So anyway, yes, I mean, we're kind of covering a lot of my next bullet points, just the fact that she became that cautionary tale because it was so—yes, she just wanted to do her own thing and live her own life and make her own decisions. But throughout history, that wasn’t a “she just wanted to,” like that was a big deal. Women weren't supposed to do that, no matter what that looked like for anyone, you know, it was like you had one option. People's attitudes, of course, have been shifting...

[Kathryn 41:06] People's attitudes, of course, have been shifting as far as what, you know, women should be doing and how they should be doing it. It's changed drastically, certainly from the onset of her story, but also arguably not that much. Unfortunately, we're still having these conversations. These things are still issues. There's still...

[Kathryn 41:24] I'm not even gonna go down that rabbit hole, I don't need to say anything more than that. But her sensuality and her kind of rejection of these patriarchal structures has led to the evolution of her own story. She has shifted from initially thought of as a demon to a religious figure to now she's kind of known and often referred to as the first ever witch. So...

[Kathryn 41:49] Now, in society, it is more socially acceptable to quote unquote be a witch than it ever has been. It's very mainstream, very accepted, we're all witches, you know. And that's not by accident. That's very much a result of what society looks like and how it has changed and just kind of our thoughts on what a woman should or could be. So...

[Kathryn 42:10] Again, like this is another thing though that even today she's often viewed as the first ever witch, there's still so many people who still use that as a bad thing and it's an example of what not to be. But that's always going to exist to some extent. I feel like there's always going to be like this push and pull of...

[Kathryn 42:30] Like quote unquote the ideal woman because it's different for everybody and like people think they have to agree on what that is and that's just just not the case. I'm stopping because I'm trying to I'm like really straying from my list here and I'm like gonna fall down this rabbit hole. I will say the reason I bring that up is because as I was doing this research I really was surprised at how many...

[Kathryn 42:56] Forums and articles and all these things that I found that talked about her as horrible example of womanhood like to this day like she's still very much used as a cautionary tale she's still very much spoken about in a if you like Lilith you're just like...

[Kathryn 43:12] I don't know, in cahoots with Satan or whatever. And Satan's never really mentioned in her story at all. Like she was a demon because like she became a demon that was like against her will. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it just blew my mind how even today there was like a 50-50 split between thinking of her as like this cool, powerful witch woman versus like.

[Gina 43:48] It...

[Kathryn 43:50] Don't ever call upon Lilith or you will like be possessed or whatever. I don't even know.

[Gina 43:54] I wish that that surprised me more.

[Kathryn 43:57] I think it surprised me just because I think I've done a very good job of only communicating with people who would think that was ridiculous. I'm like safe in my bubble, you know what I mean? But then to your point, when I use my logical brain, it shouldn't have surprised me the way it did, you know?

[Gina 44:09] Yeah.

[Kathryn 44:18] With that being said, fuck that perspective. I love Lilith. She's my girl, love her to death. I love her energy. I call upon her all the time. She is having a moment right now. I will say the silver lining is there's that other 50% who is like, wait, we were wrong about her. What's going on over here? What's the succubus situation? I wanna like...

[Kathryn 44:38] Let's dabble, you know? That very much corresponds with how popular slash more accepted it is for women to perform magic and be witches, et cetera, et cetera. So if you are a witch and you're interested in working with Lilith, but you don't know where to start, there's a lot of resources online that can help you get started. We will be linking some in the show notes.

[Kathryn 44:59] But I'm going to give you just a quick overview here so you don't have to wait at all. You can get started tonight with your demon succubus journey. First and foremost, much to my dismay, it is said that the best way to summon Lilith is in a dark forest or wooded area under a new moon. So complete darkness. Gina's ready. Gina's so ready.

[Gina 45:14] Fuck yeah. I can do that.

[Kathryn 45:35] If you do not have a pitch black forest at your disposal, a darker candlelit room will work just fine. Some common offerings for her are red wine, rich dark chocolate, like a musky sensual scent, red candles, dark crystals, and also human blood. But don't kill anybody. Just a little prick on the finger will do. I don't want to be...

[Gina 45:59] Okay. I was picturing like goblets.

[Kathryn 46:03] Yeah, I don't want to be cited in any tragedies. Everything in moderation, you know. So yeah, just think if, you know, offerings, altar setups, whatever, just think decadence, anything like rich sultry, dark colors, things like that. But why would you want to call upon Lilith? That's a great question. One of the main reasons...

[Kathryn 46:22] People work with her and work with her energy is for confidence. If you feel like you're having trouble finding your voice, questioning authority, your independence, kind of finding where you fit in your own story, she's kind of a good energy to call upon because she's a good example of not having many choices and not really having any good options and still doing what she could...

[Kathryn 46:43] With that and just finding a way to move forward. So she's someone that is good to call upon if you're feeling stuck really in any way. Don't be afraid of the demonic association she has. One of the most successful things men have ever done throughout all of history is make women or other non-male human being afraid of things so that they can stay controlled.

[Kathryn 47:11] You're not going to accidentally get possessed or possess someone if you work with Lilith. That's just not how that works. We'll talk about that another time. I know. You can do it intentionally if you want to, but you're not going to accidentally stumble upon being possessed by Satan, I promise. He's got better things to do than mess with any of our listeners. So yeah, next time someone makes you feel trapped or less than, give her a little summon and...

[Gina 47:36] Hehehe.

[Kathryn 47:43] Send us an email to let us know how it goes.

[Gina 47:46] I want to set up an altar now.

[Kathryn 47:48] Oh my god, you should! I have my altar. I have a little red candle out for her right now. I'm not gonna show it to you because it's a little bit of a mess. That's another thing people should know. These things do not have to be pretty. Just do... Lilith and just do what you can with what you have. It's okay.

[Gina 47:57] No. Great way to end it. I like that. That really put a bow on it. That was fucking good. That's that Lilith energy. You're just doing it. Doing the damn thing. Fuck yeah.

[Kathryn 48:07] Oh my god, did you like that? Right off the cuff, it is! Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 48:18] I have so many thoughts, most of them are rage-filled. And also a lot of pride, to be honest.

[Kathryn 48:25] Hmm.

[Gina 48:25] In women and women's history.

[Kathryn 48:28] Yeah. I texted Gina and was like, hey, this is a little more anti patriarchy than I intended it to be. And I actually edited it. I edited a lot of that out. This is the edited version since I texted you about that. Yeah, I was on a lot of cough medicine for the first one and just getting real mad. Just letting it all out.

[Gina 48:40] God. You. I've been feeling extra, like I'm already always full of feminist rage, but it's just been so much recently, hasn't it?

[Kathryn 49:00] As it goes.

[Gina 49:03] As it goes. Well, thank you so much. That was absolutely fascinating. And I'm going to set up my altar and take a picture and send it to you.

[Kathryn 49:07] Yes. Oh my god, yes, we can share it.

[Gina 49:13] Yes, okay, yes, I'll definitely do that. I'll pick up some stuff this weekend. But thank you guys for joining us and until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.

[Kathryn 49:22] Keep it creepy.